Help: Frequently asked questions
Each of the issues dealt with here has been included only because we have had to supply the answer more than once, in some cases on many occasions. We have taken the liberty of re-phrasing the way each question may have been presented originally. So we suggest that a glance at the answer to one or more of the following questions may well save you emailing us with a specific question with regard to what is shown on the pages of this website.
This can be for a number of reasons. The most obvious one is that you may have mis-keyed the search details. Have you spelt the placename correctly (in most instances Dove uses the spelling on Ordnance Survey maps)? Think of, and try, possible alternative ways of spelling the place. Have you considered that it might not be spelt exactly as you think it should be (remembering that, for example, placenames DO appear to change over a period of time especially with regard to a consonant appearing once or twice: thus, Goran, Gorran)? Be aware also of the peculiarities of the area concerned (eg, Welsh placenames are a phonetic representation of how they sound and not always immediately obvious to English-speakers, and Cornish placenames are sometimes prefixed with St and sometimes not). Is it possible that there is no longer a ring of bells there? (There is a list of 'lost rings' available on David Kelly's Keltek website). Does the tower actually contain a ring as such, or is it a set of bells which can only be chimed? If you have been attempting to search by TowerBase ID, have you inadvertently used an ID pertaining to a ring no longer extant, or one which has never been issued?
We try to ensure that all names under which a tower might be known will be found when searching on that name, but occasionally (for example if that name follows an opening bracket) then it may not be returned as one of the results. In such cases try to think of an alternative searching strategy, such as looking for the county concerned. Don't forget that if you know how to use Grid References, you can also search on an approximate Grid Reference.
One very common way of failing to get a 'hoped-for' answer to a search enquiry is to constrain your search over-strongly by entering too many search requirements at one time. It is helpful to remember that each search's constraints are 'additive': all have to be matched rather than just any one of them.
Have you been searching within a "diocese" for a church which has been declared redundant and has now changed 'ownership'? Another possibility is that you have been looking for a 'mini-ring', in which case one needs to remember that we have a 'cut-off': the minimum weight of the tenor of a ring included within Dove is 56lb (0.5cwt).
Always remember that certain keyboard characters should NOT be included in 'a search string': examples include ampersand (&), comma (,), hyphen (-). Also one needs to bear in mind that there are two other characters which we call 'wildcards' which are used for special purposes when searching. The asterisk (*) can be used to substitute for 'any number of characters, including none' and so searching on the string A*Y will give you all sorts of results you might not expect. Try it and see if you can explain them all. Similarly the query character (?) can be used to substitute for just one, and only one character: thus searching on B??KS will find towers in Bucks and Berks, and will also return places such as Berkswell and Barkston.
Finally, you may care to help others if you are convinced that the name you are searching for doesn't produce a result and yet you are certain that there is a ring of bells there. Drop us an email telling us the name you were looking for - and support that with a grid reference if it's in the UK so that we can check that the OS also uses the name you used. Then we will consider adding that as an alternative place name for the Dove entry.
As noted on our conventions help page, we normally regard the latest edition of Crockford's Clerical Directory as the authoritative reference for the dedication of churches in the Church of England.
In our experience, when presented with good evidence Crockford will readily agree to change the dedication in for the next edition. An approach is usually best done in consultation with the Diocesan or parish office where there is probably an archivist with access to supporting historical records. If you succeed in getting a change made, do let us know and we will gladly change what we show.
As far as churches within the Church in Wales are concerned, Crockford also shows those, but the definitive repository for such information is the RB office in Cardiff and their website can be viewed via this link.
If you believe the weight shown is incorrect, let us know using the ‘Dove Team’ link at the bottom left of each page. But please note that we will need supporting evidence to justify any change in tenor weight. Appropriate support could take the form of a copy of the original letter from the foundry that cast the bells or undertook subsequent work on them such as retuning.
Dove includes details of regular open practices, if we have been told them. If no details a listed, this may be because the tower does not hold open practices, or because they only happen infrequently or on an irregular schedule, or because no-one has told us about them. Please let us know if we are missing details of a regular practice night, or if the details shown are wrong.
We work on the basis that most practices start at around 7.30pm. If the start time is more than 25 minutes different, please tell us and we will include the time. If you do not hold a practice nearly every week, we can show simple alternative arrangements, such as joint practices with another tower.
We recommend that towers have a webpage which includes contact details and any variations to the normal practice arrangements. We will gladly link to this page if told about it.
Practice night information is not shown if ringing is suspended at a tower, for example during repairs to the tower.
Sunday service ringing times can change very frequently and we lack the resources to keep this information updated. We suggest that that a tower website is the best place to show this information, and will happily link to that site if we are told about it.
Association websites may also list the time of service ringing. We link to these from the tower details page, or there is a long list of associations, guilds and societies on the Change Ringing Resources site.
Text shown in green (like this) is normally a link to another place where more details can be found. If the text is a link, it will turn red when you move your mouse pointer over it.
As noted on our conventions help page, these indicate that ringing takes place from the ground floor (GF), that the ring is portable (P), that there is a simulator installed (S), or that there is a toilet available for ringers (T).
8. This question is no longer applicable
There is a link on the search page to Download results as POIs for SatNav
. You can restrict the search results arbitrarily using the checkboxes on the list of results and then choosing Restrict to selection
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The first eight editions of the printed guide include chimes and carillons, both in churches and in secular buildings, though the list of chimes was never particularly complete. When Dove's data on towers was moved into a computer database, the first step to making it available online, a decision had to make on what to include. During production of the 9th Edition, it was decided that Dove is primarily about listing full-circle rings, and chimes were dropped.
The scope of Dove was expanded in 2021, first to include carillons in the British Isles, and later to include all bells in buildings under the jurisdiction of the Church of England. This includes many chimes. This has reinstatated many of the chimes dropped during preparation of the 9th Edition, but not those outside the Church of England – for example, in secular locations or in Scotland. It is our intention to reinstate these eventually. In the mean time, Mike Chester's website has a comprehensive list of chimes in the United Kingdom and Ireland.
There really are two different scenarios: the replacement value is either a precise one, or it is approximate.
If it is a precise one, then we will be anxious to learn how and whence that weight was obtained. If you can assure us that it is the by-product of a rehang or some work carried out by a bellfoundry, then we will happily accept it (noting, in passing, that there are FAR more numbers of "precise" weights ending in 0 pounds than might be expected from the sheer statistically-based 1 in every 28!). So, where you have an authoritative, measured, precise weight where we are currently showing an approximate one, we'll be pleased to learn of it, together with a detailed note of the source you are relying upon - and (only) then will amend our records accordingly.
The situation with a new approximation is quite different. Various people will make an estimate of a bell's weight and, almost by definition, one person's estimate will differ from another's. Alternatively, some people like to use a formula (see RW2004/459) which uses as one of its parameters the nominal raised to the 4th power, together with a constant whose value varies empirically from founder to founder and from age to age. While we agree that there is scope for this formula to be refined, we are not (yet) convinced that it produces significantly and consistently better results than an approximation by an experienced bell historian.
So, our present position is that, as a matter of principle, we will NOT replace an already showing approximate weight by any other approximation ... simply because that opens up a huge 'can of worms' about 'whose estimate is the better one?' - and THAT is a totally fruitless discussion. Moreover, it would result in endless changes to Dove towards no really improved end result: all the cognoscenti recognise the meaning of the word approximate and accept that an estimate is just that.
And does it really matter at the end of the day? What we need to know is either the most recent recorded precise weight (if the bell has been put on a set of scales - and THAT doesn't even address the question as to when those scales were last calibrated) or "approximately what can we expect to feel at the end of the rope when we start to ring here?"
12. This question is no longer applicable
We do not identify the Ornance Survey maps needed for towers because there is no single answer due to the overlap between these map. However, their website gives a very good range of facilities for finding out the best map, even printing a small section of it for your own use.
We suggest the following strategy if you wish to make contact with any given tower.
1. First look to see whether the relevant details page actually shows a URL for a website particular to that tower. Dove now shows such a link for more than 40% of towers, and most of these provide further details about contacting either their tower correspondent or someone who might be able to help with the information you are seeking.
2. If the tower hasn't a website of its own (or if the website pointed to from Dove doesn't provide a method of contacting that particular tower), then in all probability it will be affiliated to a local ringing association or guild or society, or in a few instances more than one. For most towers (rings of 3 being the principal exceptions) Dove also indicates these affiliations. Its name provides a link to that part of the Central Council's website where each affiliated society's URL is presented. You may need to search a little more down that page before you come to the actual entry you are looking for. Click on that link and then you can usually find a list of towers and some indication of who is the relevant contact person for each tower.
With the advent of social networking facilities (eg, Twitter, Facebook), some towers have chosen to use those facilities as a means for potential visitors to get in touch. If such is the case, we suggest that their own website is the appropriate place to provide a link for that purpose.
Clicking on the 'Contact' link in the bottom lh corner of any webpage provides a means of sending an email to those who maintain the Dove website; it does not provide a mechanism for contacting any particular tower. To achieve that would mean keeping accurate an even larger amount of constantly changing information than is already held within Dove, and we feel that we'd NEVER be completely up to date with a comprehensive list of details for tower correspondents.
Please do NOT immediately write telling us that any one particular datum for a bell must be wrong.
Our collective aim must be to ascertain the correct value for that datum: simply knowing that it is "wrong" takes us hardly anywhere towards that goal. In fact, we are probably better placed than most in being able to detect that any one particular item is likely to be incorrect and, moreover, to be able estimate a more "likely value" for it as we have such a large number of comparators.
Moreover, telling us that something is wrong merely results in adding to our list of queries, already many hundreds of items long, and it "puts the ball in our court" for its solution. That also makes it yet another item to file - and to find when the next challenge arrives. The likelihood of that pile of issues ever being cleared is thereby simply decreased. It is FAR better that you join in the task of providing a resolution.
So, please, first look at what we show as the source for the data: often it is a published work or a set of data that is easily accessible via the internet. If a transcription error appears to have occurred - which is not impossible - then do please write in and tell us without further ado and, if confirmed, it will be corrected. It may be that we already have a database note indicating that the originally published value has been corrected by its original author, or a reliable subsequent worker, and then we will respond in such a vein. (Corrigenda to published works are not invariably produced and are often incomplete unless they are internet based.)
If the question remains, see our instructions on how to notify us of errors in bell details. There is one exception to this. That relates to our practice of not altering an estimate for a bell's weight (particularly for a tenor which will probably have been the value shown for some time in the Dove entry). Here our answer given to FAQ#11 applies.
Please DO immediately write telling us if you know for certain that some part of the Dove entry is not now correct.
People are very quick to let us know when a tower or ring is out of action for some reason ... but then, all too often we hear no more, sometimes for several years. Everyone seems to 'leave it to someone else'. The most common situation is when bells are being restored. Also note that we now have a list of current restoration projects.
While we do prefer someone connected with the tower itself to provide information, we'd far rather be told about what needs to be corrected than to leave something that is misleading to be showing for an unduly long time.
It is available from the Central Council's shop, priced at £15.00.
Unfortunately, we cannot possibly know the details about every different model of SatNav.
Please note that we strongly encourage ringers NOT to use what we show as the postcode for each UK tower for SatNav purposes. This is because, in general, it is, in Royal Mail terminology, only mail 'delivery points' that are assigned a postcode (and churches rarely are a mail delivery point). The postcode shown, unless subsequently amended, was (by and large) determined some years ago by using a facility (courtesy of Jibble) which approximated the church's grid reference to a nearby postcode. In contrast, we DO have confidence in the latitude / longitude values that we show for each tower and which have been refined by the kind work of Anne Sladen, or (where we have one) those of its 'destination point' which is usually a convenient parking spot. So it is these latitude / longitude values which we suggest are loaded into your SatNav device.
It has been pointed out to us, however, that being able to supply the postcode of a UK church to an emergency service can often expedite their attendance. So we do not intend to remove such data from our database and we will be pleased to be advised of any refinement that may be thought necessary or helpful.
There is a limited amount of time that can reasonably be spent on maintaining this resource by the efforts of volunteers who also have a life to lead. Thus we have to set priorities for how we deal with queries and submissions.
Our first attention will be given to maintaining the functioning of the facility if at all possible. Complete absence of the Dove webpages would mean that no-one has access to what we consider now to be an essential resource for the Exercise, and so we try to ensure that the basic functionality of the site remains available at all times. When problems occur, we try to indicate this on the home page and on social media.
Next we will process emails that follow our guidelines and thus can quickly be dealt with. Preferably each email should deal with ONE and only one subject: dealing with several towers / issues within the body of one email makes it difficult not only to know where to file it (most are kept for future reference) but also for finding should the issue(s) be raised again subsequently.
Submissions using our standard editing forms fall into the 'easily-dealt-with' category. Regrettably, many people either do not seem to read, or take notice of, the associated guidance on the SatNav destination submission page and send an unnecessary one which then makes a more detailed response necessary which of course takes time to compose.
One common reason why you may not have received a reply from us is if you have entered your email address incorrectly. If that has been entered incorrectly, we will have absolutely no way of getting back to you. A hint that you might not have entered it correctly will be given to you by the fact that you will not receive our standard acknowledgement that "Your enquiry has been submittted to Dove", for that too can only be addressed using the data you have submitted - so be most careful in entering it.
At the bottom of our priority list of items that arrive for attention are those emails, often with attachments, which are sent - albeit with good intention - but without prior discussion with us about preferred format nor about how the data therein might be assimilated into the Dove database. In the absence of such an agreement between us, no-one can assume that they know how best we can handle their data: what might be straightforward or convenient for the sender may well prove to be excessively labour intensive at the receiving end. Moreover, if there is any re-keying that is implicit, then there is the added question of checking whether what has been transcribed has been done correctly. It is FAR better to seek a solution which enables YOUR data to be imported into our database without any re-keying whatsoever: then all the mistakes within it will not be ours. (Errare humanum est: we make enough mistakes of our own, and without intending to do so. And do remember the whole of the dictum: errare humanum est, sed perseverare diabolicum: to err is human, but to persist in the mistake is diabolical.)
What really will make certain that your email will have lowest priority for our attention is to send an enquiring email to others within 'the Dove team'. It is our experience that correctly addressed emails do not go astray and that they WILL have been received. If you do not get a reply within a day or five, then please be assured that we are spending our time on higher priorities than those of your email.
In normal circumstances you can expect a quick reply ... but even we like to have a holiday. A guideline for the expectation of a response is a maximum of a week in 'normal times' or 2 weeks (or, very occasionally, even longer) during holiday periods or when crises arise.
Locate the founder on the bell founders page, follow the link in the final column (headed 'Part Rings'). This will take you to a page listing all towers which contain a bell by that founder, regardless of whether the bell is part of the main ring or is an additional bell such as a sanctus bell. At the foot of the page there is the option to plot all these towers on a map which can offer a fascinating insight to the founder's area of operation.
21. This question is no longer applicable
The short answer is that probably no-one has notified us of that the information in Dove is wrong. We lack the resources to continually check and re-check each entry, so must rely on information being supplied to us.
We prefer that you just tell us promptly once the project has started. The difficulty with information in advance is that it leaves us having of deciding just what part of an entry should be changed and when, and then remember to do so. We also know that schedules can change.
24. This question is no longer applicable
For reasons beyond our control it has regrettably proved impossible for us to continue updating the iOS Dove App, and it reportedly no longer works satisfactorily on iOS 8. Accordingly, we advise that it is no longer available.
What3Words is a poor technical solution to a problem that does not exist. It is not an open standard, and their licensing scheme is costly and opaque. We strongly discourage its use and will not be including it in Dove’s Guide.
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